Resonant Information - Toxic Bars and Smoking Bans - Comments

I think we have to keep

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 10:46:00 -0500

I think we have to keep things simple in order to have a clear picture of this problem. Recently many countries introduced the smoking ban mostly for public places. I am a smoker and this new rule seems fair enough, people have the right to fresh air and we shouldn't deny them this right. Plus, smoking ban should be an alarm signal for smokers for quiting.

What are the smokers right

Anonymous — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:01:00 -0500

What are the smokers right exactly? For sure they don't have the right to affect others peoples health, and I think this is the main point here. I don't know anti smoking campaign is spam, I don't have enough arguments to believe so. By the way, I am a smoker.

Smoking ban data

Zed — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:05:01 -0500

That's a lot of links. Having finally managed to get through them, I'd like to note that the overall effect is rather spectacularly weak, so I'd like to respond to the major claims.

Claim 1: The California smoking ban caused the loss of 3,000 restaraunts and bars and $100 billion in state revenues. The support for this appears to be one poorly controlled and researched non-peer-reviewed paper by two men whose primary qualifications appear to be that they're both smokers, one of which indirectly benefitted financially from a tobacco company. The premise of the paper is that even though studies evaluating the impact of the years immediately before and after smoking bans have shown that either the effect is neutral or even positive, if you pick out the states that had "smoker-unfriendly" cultures, they failed to grow as fast over the last ten years as states that were "smoker-friendly". The paper is rather hampered by huge chunks of missing data, and deliberately discarding the data that went completely opposite to the trend (Utah, which underwent massive growth rather than declining at all) on the grounds that it only had half as many smokers as the other states. If you the claim is that smoking bans cause smokers to stop spending money on bars and restaurants, then the expected result for Utah is a decline in growth about half that of the others, not a massive increase. In addition, there were no controls for other economic factors over that ten-year period, and on top of that, the question is never asked where the money is going, if not to bars and restaurants. Do smokers suddenly increase in savings accounts? Buy out-of-state products? If not, then the total economic impact to the state (as opposed to the restaurant and bar industry) is going to be approximately zero. It's possible that anti-smoking sentiment and laws have caused a gradual decline in restaurant and bars in "smoker-unfriendly" states, but if so, there are no listed peer-reviewed papers to support that claim. It's rather telling that the listed pro-smoking article admits up front that the vast majority of the peer-reviewed papers show no economic impact, and the ones that show negative economic impact have ties to the tobacco industry (a problem that the article itself perpetuates), and its only counter to that is to make the undefended assertion that the peer-reviewed paper authors are somehow all funded before the fact by anti-smoking groups. No evidence of this extraordinary claim is given.

Claim 2: There is no such thing as a tax on a specific product, because buyers will buy taxed products anyway at the same rate, while reducing purchases of non-taxed products. It's hard to know how to answer this, as it conflicts on its face with my entire understanding of economics and human nature. People buy taxed (or generally more expensive) products less. In any case, since smokers disproportionately consume health care funds, it makes sense that they should carry a greater portion of the burden.

Claim 3: There is no health issue with second-hand smoke, because we didn't become extinct by burning dung. Again, it's hard to know where to begin. In the days when people were regularly exposed to smoke, they died much younger. This is generally undisputed. You might dispute how much extended lifespans are directly the result of better air in the household, and how much is just due to better medical technology, but it's certainly ludicrous to claim that only things that cause complete species extinction constitute health risks. In addition, once again, peer-reviewed papers claim the exact opposite -- and 94% of the ones that disagree were directly funded by the tobacco industry to say so.

Claim 4: Public smoking bans are invalid because they infringe on property rights. Property rights are not absolute, and there are a great many restrictions on what you can do even on private property, much less public property. Buildings have to be up to code. Restaurants and bars have to comply with a large number of health ordinances that have nothing to do with smoking. If it requires some restriction on property rights to make sure that I don't end up eating rat poop when I go to a restaurant, this is a good thing. Same with toxic chemicals in the air.

Claim 5 (from the "New Years Resolutions"): Arsenic, carbon monoxide, and nicotine are the only harmful components of tobacco smoke, and those occur in such small amounts that smoking is thus less dangerous than breathing the air outside and drinking water. The morbidity rates alone should dispel this: smoking kills off about half a million people every year. The lethality of smoking is not news — scientific studies of morbidity differences between smokers and nonsmokers go back to at least 1938, and the deadly effects of smoking were commented on as far back as 1833. Furthermore, you can control the damage you do to yourself by cigarette smoke much more easily than you can stop drinking water.

Claim 6: The nicotine consumption from people who eat tomatoes, potatoes, pepper, tea, & eggplants is on par with the nicotine consumption of smokers (resolution #8). Again, it's hard to know where to begin with this. I've never even heard of someone waking up in the night, desperate to get down to the nearest grocer to fix up an eggplant craving.

Claim 7: The total weight of Class A carcinogens in cigarette smoke is less than 1/1000 of that given off by an alcoholic drink in one hour. We're starting to get silly here, and I couldn't find anything on any of the websites listed to support this, nor anywhere else on the web (I actually hunted for quite some bit, because I'm passably interested in the health tradeoffs on light alcohol consumption, but the only related thing I found was that cigarettes apparently induce desire for alcohol, which makes this point rather counterproductive). In any case, I try to make a point of not inhaling alcohol. For one thing, I expect I'd drown before I got cancer.

Claim 8: If you support public anti-smoking laws, you also have to support extreme air filtering regulations that require removal of "bacteria, viruses, dust mites, dust mite excrement, fungi, molds, spoors, pollen, dander, flakes of dead skin,+ chemicals" (resolution #13). In fact, there are already health regulations in restaurants about concentrations of some of these things, and most places do have filters on their air conditioning systems, but I'd like to make sure that at least no ban on chemicals in the air ever goes through. I like the chemicals in air. Particularly nitrogen and oxygen and hydrogen. I kind of need those.

Claim 9: God told us to burn things, so smoke is healthy (resolution #20). There are a lot of very strange commandments in the Old Testament, most of which are (thankfully) no longer practiced. Ascribing arbitrary secondary lessons to Old Testament commandments is not exactly convincing in an argument. Selective bible quoting will get you almost anywhere, sadly, and if you're the kind of person that still burns complete cattle on altars measured in cubits, feels compelled to marry his brother's widow and get her pregnant, and thinks that crawfish are an abomination...

... well, I guess that explains a lot.

smoking bans

aalf — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:24:47 -0500

Anti-smoking is a SCAM. Lies about health are stuffing the coffers of lawyers, pharmaceutical companies, and the filthy rich (funded with hundreds of millions of tax$) anti-smoking INDUSTRY. The BIGGEST lie I am seeing is 'there is only one side to this issue'.

Smokers DO NOT pay the tobacco taxes, by the way. EVERYONE pays them, since smokers merely shift spending from some other part of their budget to pay them. They get sucked right up out of the general economy, just as ALL taxes. This is costing YOU hundreds of billions.

There IS NO 'health' issue re: environmental tobacco smoke. I have been laughing for about 20 years at the brainwashed morons who seem to believe a species which survived (for 'millenia' if you believe the 'evolution gospel') by heating and cooking by burning wood, coal, peat, DUNG, and anything else humans have been able to figure out how to burn is suddenly being 'killed' by tobacco smoke. I am not laughing anymore, as now in the United States of America, we are revoking PRIVATE PROPERTY rights re: a LEGAL activity. This is NOT communist Russia here - and even Russia has had the wisdom to get rid of communism.

It IS costing us all hundreds of billions. Here is one study, showing CA has about 3,000 FEWER restaurants and bars than they should have based on their past 10 yrs. of economic growth:
http://www.aalf.ws/smoking/bancostsCA100billiondollars/

Here is what I am doing about it:
http://www.aalf.ws/smoking/tourNE-ban-states0106/

Here are my New Year's Resolutions:

New Year's Resolutions 2006 for Smokers & Freedom Lovers
Based on FACTS - Info at www.aalf.ws/smokingmad/
An American who Loves Freedom ~ www.aalf.ws/

1. Give up driving for one day. Since 1 day of driving = carbon monoxide exposure equivalent of a whole lifetime of smoking, this should equalize that risk.

2. Give up 1 glass of water every 11.3 years. Since EPA allowed amount of arsenic in ONE glass of water = 165,000 cigarettes, at two packs per day, this will equalize that risk. (3 pk/day=1 glass every 7.53 years : )

3. Stay as far away from large airports as possible. Each day they produce carbon monoxide equivalent of 160 million cigarettes, & the nitrogen oxide equivalent of 8.5 BILLION cigarettes.
If smoke is really so 'deadly', you should live forever . $$$ saved by not flying will pay for the extortion cigarette taxes, + other great stuff!

4. NEVER buy another Nissan, nor any other vehicle which is not provided with a safe ash tray. Keep attorney's number handy in case there IS an accident next time skirt catches fire on Los Angeles freeway.

5. Pray for brainwashed morons who believe a species which survived (for millennia, if you believe the 'evolution gospel') by cooking & heating with wood, coal, DUNG, peat, & anything else humans could figure out how to burn is suddenly being killed off by tobacco smoke??? (ROFLOL!)

6. ADD UP all the $$$ saved by NOT BUYING nicotine patches & pills (costs WAY more than cigarettes here in KY), Prozac, sleeping meds, weight loss meds, junk food & other smoking substitutes... 6.b. Finish this list - it's long.

7. Ask insurers for discounts if weight is under control. According to a Wall Street Journal article some time ago, obesity is costing society almost double what smoking is in medical expenses.

8. Start bugging everyone to 'kick' their tomato, potato, pepper, tea, & eggplant addiction. Nicotine is in all these foods, & said to be 'more dangerous and addictive than heroin'. (nonsense...) It's NATURAL. 'Big tobacco' DID NOT put it there - God (or evolution ?) did.

9. 'For their own good', get on everyone's case about their SUGAR, Caffeine, & CHOCOLATE addictions. Addiction is BAD no matter what! Become a Total PITA, the salvation of the whole world is up to YOU.

10. Stay away from ALCOHOL. Even if you don't drink, stay away from others drinking. The total weight of Class A carcinogens in cigarette smoke is less than 1/1000 of that given off by an alcoholic drink in one hour.

11. Buy pharmaceutical stocks. 'Big Pharma' is making a grab for a nicotine monopoly. They are raking in more boodle than all the illegal drug lords put together with each new smoking ban. (hmmm-see #8 ?!?)

12. On second thought - DUMP pharmaceutical stocks. When sheep-le figure out what huge whopping lies they've been told, & how many zillion$ 'big pharma's' spent buying all our politicians, media, medical, & 'education' systems, Stuff will hit the fan - BIG time.

13. Demand REAL 'Clean Indoor Air' laws. 'Smoke free' air is NOT 'CLEAN' air. Air contains bacteria, viruses, dust mites, dust mite excrement, fungi, molds, spoors, pollen, dander, flakes of dead skin,+ chemicals. YUCK!

14. Rudeness is 'in', but don't be rude to those who assault us with smells that offend us. Take allergy meds for all who wear perfumes, colognes, after shaves, & any other scents we are allergic to. Don't make them go outside in the cold, nor refuse to be in the same room with them.

15. Withhold all POLITICAL Contributions except to those who COMMIT to protecting our PRIVATE Property Rights. Demand a NATIONAL LAW PROTECTING Private Property from bans of legal activities & substances.

16. Avoid EVENTS where there IS a heated, DESIGNATED SMOKING AREA, sealed off with doors, & those in charge of the event won't ALLOW it to be used for smoking, forcing folks to stand outside in 23f degrees. NO MORE $ for grossly inconsiderate / downright CRUEL people!

17. Boycott ALL smoking ban areas. These folks have lost their FREEDOM on Private Property. HELP them regain it by helping to put pressure on their public officials. TELL officials & CEOs of companies how much $ you USED to spend, & how much it's costing them.

18. VOTE with YOUR $ - Avoid spending ANY $ in ban areas - Not only restaurants & bars -
why are they always the only ones to pay? Do not buy gas, nor stay at motels, Do not shop at retail stores, No catalog or online orders, No produce/products/services from BAN Areas
19. Withhold $$$ from American Liar (er lung : ) Assoc., & other 'health charities', until they quit wasting all our donations on anti-smoking propaganda, & do something useful, like give us a TEST for the Lung cancer GENE. Their CEOs don't NEED those 6 fig. salaries.

20. Search the Bible - there are almost 400 references commanding burnt offerings & incense being burned in God's temple. Maybe if the EPA had been there to tell the Lord how many carcinogens are in a burnt offering, He would have realized smoke is 'unhealthy'?

21. Be thankful if you don't live in a smoking ban area - yet. The CA smoking ban has cost them 100 billion$ so far. There are about 3,000 fewer restaurants & bars than there should be based on past 10 yrs. economic growth. ALL CA taxpayers are paying that $hortfall.
It isn't necessary to do everything, or to do it ALL the time.

Every little bit helps! It will all add up over TIME.

There are still about 60 MILLION (or MORE? Anti-smokers LIE about this too) smokers in the USA.

ALL FREEDOM LOVERS JOIN IN - YOUR Property Rights are Threatened TOO!

It FEELS GOOD to be able to DO SOMETHING!

Remember: All the OLDEST people in the world happen to be SMOKERS : )http://www.forces.org/evidence/hamilton/other/oldest.htm

Happy New Year!

These resolutions are ALL based on FACTS.
Documentation, FREE Reports, and Information about everything mentioned
in these resolutions is at www.aalf.ws/smokingmad/.
Follow links there to a wealth of health, economic, HUMOR, & other info.

Animated .gif version
http://www.aalf.ws/image/SmokersNewYearsResolutionsAS.gif

Anti-smoking FACTS Card 1
http://www.aalf.ws/image/SmokingFactsCardAS.gif
Anti-smoking FACTS Card 2
http://www.aalf.ws/image/Anti-Smoking-Facts240x140AS.gif

http://www.hosanna1.com/smoking/Christians/

Please SHARE THIS COAST to COAST & Worldwide

Lynda Farley - http://www.hosanna1.com/myresume.html
Edmonton, KY (270)432-7272 CST

AALF - An American who Loves Freedom - www.aalf.ws/

'The Most Beautiful Pages & Dogs On The WWW'
www.hosanna1.com/

Toxic Bars and Smoking Bans

Zed — Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:11:13 -0500

I found out through Rox Populi that Austin, Texas is putting up for a vote a measure to ban smoking in most public places. Smokers, such as the ones at Pandagon [Edit: that link doesn't seem to have survived Pandagon's reorganization, but there is an Internet Archive copy available] and Norbizness are already ranting about it, making the usual claims that it is going to destroy the economy, kill off live music, and is a violation of smokers' rights, along with the somewhat less usual claims that the worker health issues are unimportant because they're just the cover for the evil liberal commie non-smoker agenda to burn smokers at the stake and tear down the rock music scene, after taking away all their pot and setting fire to their SUVs.